EP3: When to Quit: Feast or Famine Cycles, Slow Intuition, and Listening to the Market

Zach Oshinbanjo: [00:00:00] Today we’re going to be talking about when to quit. We’re going to cover three different viewpoints as we’ve navigated through this process. What is your viewpoint going to be Sarah?

Sarah Schumacher: It’s hard. There is a lot to cover on that. When do you pivot versus quit? When do you pivot yourself into a corner? What’s the difference between burnout and needing a break versus needing to completely call it? It’s not just a simple question of when to quit.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, and I like that you said before we started recording listening to your intuition is a big part of it. I’m in the middle of this right now.

I have so many things going on at once and I’m looking back over the last two years, three years almost, of starting things, getting them funded, pushing my business forward, growing it going through feast or famine cycles. And It’s like the loops are getting bigger, feast or famine. We were hitting some pretty big feast cycles right before the economy started going downhill.

So then when we hit a pretty big famine cycle, it was like, well, that’s to be expected. I just made [00:01:00] six figures in one month. Of course, I’m gonna feel some pain and maybe even have to lay some people off if I don’t keep those projects consistent. That’s normal for an agency. I’d also landed investment at the same time, and we were really on a high.

So then when we started going downhill, it felt like, well, this is part of the cycle I’ve been doing for years. I’m used to this. But we just kept going down. And I’m not the only one that’s been feeling it, I know. Several agencies here in town, a couple that I used to work for, have shuttered.

 I feel lucky that we’re still even open and even in diligence to possibly sell. Is this a serious enough downturn to get out now? When do I bail? I’m the linchpin for everything. It’s time to start shutting some things down and get hyperfocused.

That conversation’s been going on with me internally for at least 18 months. 

 The entrepreneurs in my life are telling me look at the numbers, you’ve got a lot of good things here.

In fact, I reached out about 18 months ago to multiple mentors, one of which [00:02:00] teaches business at MIT and teaches pipeline classes in the group that I’m a part of and got his advice. And he was like, absolutely do not quit, double down, you’re experiencing what every true founder is always going to experience.

It does get hard. If you look at anybody successful, they don’t quit when it hits this level. They level up. Lean in. I was like, okay. So that’s what I did. To his credit, I hit another upswing and we kept going. And we’ve continued to stay profitable. We’ve only just started to hit a point over the last month or so where I’m starting to feel like We’re really getting into the red, and this is not an area I’m comfortable with.

I’ve always been a single parent that’s gotta make money to survive, and so I don’t have a habit of just racking up debt and putting off paying my taxes and just being like, it’ll be fine. So when I’ve got these entrepreneurs being like, no, no, no, that’s normal.

Just go into debt. Just don’t pay your taxes. Just like.

Sarah Schumacher: That’s the sounds like a great plan.

Lee Zuvanich: [00:03:00] Yeah.

Zach Oshinbanjo: go off a cliff idea that everybody subscribes to, 

Lee Zuvanich: right. Build, build plan. Build it on your way down. Yeah. You probably won’t crash. Don’t worry about it. 

Zach Oshinbanjo: You’ll be all right.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. 

Sarah Schumacher: Nevermind. In fact, 95% of them crash.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. , right? Yeah. Statistically, I’m gonna crash. . 

Zach Oshinbanjo: Everybody always focus on the pinnacle, the people who actually, it did work out.

Sarah Schumacher: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Founder porn. You have to. 

Lee Zuvanich: Well, and you have to drink your own Kool Aid, and you have to believe in it more than anyone else, or no one will invest, people won’t buy.

That’s the founder magic. I know this is the way forward if it kills me. I don’t want it to kill me.

Zach Oshinbanjo: That’s a bad way to run a business. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, if it affects my mental health, it affects my physical health.

I mean, it could kill me. When I talk about it affecting my health the entrepreneurs that are telling me to keep going are also like, oh yeah, been there. Yeah, it’ll ruin your relationships. Yeah, exactly. Get ready to get divorced, get sick. I’m afraid that I have gotten this, it’s almost like a gambling addiction.

 I’ve put myself in a position where there’s all these highs and lows, and I’m just waiting for the next [00:04:00] high, and I just keep on working. I know it’s gonna work out, it’s gonna be fine. Well, what if it’s not fine? I have kids to take care of. So I have started job hunting. My lead investor told me probably six months ago that I needed to do that because if I can’t get a bunch of investors on board and in this economy, that’s extremely hard to do, then I need to go get some stable income.

And so after he told me that, I wasn’t ready to start job hunting cause I still have revenue and income, but everything I’m investing money into is being really slow to give me a return. So for me, when to quit. I’m afraid that, looking back, I’m gonna wish I’d quit a year ago. I’m still trapped in the middle of making the decision, trying to figure out, well, what do I shut down versus go harder on?

For instance, I’m in due diligence to sell my agency, with people who seem pretty interested still. I’ve got interested investors, and this round could end up being syndicated, which is multiple millions of dollars of investment. So in the back of my mind, there’s always this loop of just go do this next [00:05:00] thing.

And it’s gonna be like every other story I’ve ever heard or read. Oh yeah, you know, it was so scary and so tough, but we made it out. So that’s what keeps me going, and I’m trying to balance that with what would a sane person do? Which will make you crazy. That cognitive dissonance, that’s where pain comes from. I’ve got a lot of that going on right now. So I don’t know. When to quit. Laughter That’s my problem. 

Sarah Schumacher: The Buddhist formula would be pain times resistance equals suffering. 

Lee Zuvanich: Exactly. I’m practicing non resistance, and I want to say it’s helping.

 If you’re a founder who’s struggling and you’re wondering if meditation And practicing non resistance and being present will help. It totally helps. It’s been transformative for me. 

Sarah Schumacher: Well, the way I hear that though is if pain times resistance equals suffering, then the resistance to the pain could be the pain of quitting, if it’s the right thing.

If it’s just the resistance of the difficulty of the situation, that’s different. You need to define your level of risk that you’re comfortable with from the get go.[00:06:00] 

Lee Zuvanich: I’m comfortable with so much risk. 

Sarah Schumacher: Define what success means to you individually. I’m always Talking about this to people because everyone thinks you need to grow this thing to a bajillion dollars and have a team of a thousand people and all that.

Zach Oshinbanjo: Easiest visual indicator that someone has.

Sarah Schumacher: Yes. Oh, you look successful. Exactly. Success is what you personally want your life to look like. I’m not interested in the hockey stick this is a scaling slow growth lifestyle business the way I’ve been running it and that’s intentional. So the decisions I make are intentional and that’s really important. But I also think part of that is there’s a flip side to defining success and that would be defining your level of risk. So if you know that the finances are gonna stress you out Then make sure that you structure the finances in such a way that you remove that risk.

Lee Zuvanich: My solution has been to refuse to get stressed out. 

Sarah Schumacher: Well, but you also have a higher level of risk than I do, right? Don’t resist who you are if that is something you’re not comfortable with. If I felt like I had to take on Every client I’m not comfortable with that.

 I will turn people down. I want the freedom to be able to do that because I’m not afraid Of how I’m gonna [00:07:00] feed my kid or something. For me as far as when to quit the big thing I always think of is anxiety is a sign that something’s wrong. When I was involved in a tech startup a few years ago I had a lot of anxiety about the way things were going and it’s because my gut knew that things were not okay But I wasn’t listening to that.

So there’s this level of intuition that you have to trust and this is a conversation that goes way beyond business because this is just, relationships, this is so important. People need to understand, you need to learn to trust your gut, and you need to cultivate whatever that is that helps you see things, interpreting body language, or patterns of behavior. That’s so important, and you have to trust that.

So I knew, deep down, things were not okay, and I did not see it consciously. But then I started having anxiety, and so it was, okay, how do I solve this problem? And everything was about solving this problem, resolving this conflict, and it ended up resulting in, oh, no, no, no, no, no, this is not resolvable.

This is leaving a business [00:08:00] entirely. Quitting was this long process of anxiety, and then it became this, switch flipping after getting a lot of advice from people that had to basically tell me to do what I already knew I needed to do. When I heard that from one particular person that was like, dude you already know what you need to do.

Why are you talking to me? That was a switch. I was like, Oh damn, I need to leave. I need to quit this thing. It takes these meandering thought processes of why do I feel this way and how are things going and weighing all these things and it’s interesting because it’s so logical and it should be logical.

I mean look at the balance sheet look at all that stuff but at the end of the day it’s also your gut will tell you and it’s just so hard to listen to that because that’s not the typical advice. Keep pushing, or whatever. So, for me it was, it was, yeah, no, no, no.

I need, I need to quit and I need to get out of this. And then, of course, once I made that decision, as painful as that was, it was so incredibly obvious afterwards what had been happening and that I never should have been involved in it in the first place. How can you be so blind, kind of [00:09:00] thing.

 It’s such a weird process. It’s not pleasant ever.

Lee Zuvanich: so, if you could give yourself advice looking back on that time. When would you have said, hey, it’s time to quit? 

Sarah Schumacher: I think slowing down. Because if I had slowed down, In multiple stages and sat with my thoughts more and been able to think through why I felt the way about things. there were lots of things that bothered me at the time.

What a weird thing to say or what, just all these little things. Right. And you just blow them off, you know, okay, well, that was weird moving on because you’re running a million miles an hour. I was involved in three different businesses, I’m doing all this stuff. It was wild. And so I just never sat with myself long enough to be like, Oh, this is what this means. So I think slowing down is a big one. If you feel like you’re at this point, stop. Sit, meditate. Sit with your thoughts, journal. Don’t blow off those weird little nagging thoughts in the back of your mind that are like, Okay, why does this bother me?

What does this say? And I think if I had done that, I would have made some different decisions for sure. I don’t think things would have ended up differently. I made a decision I never should have in the first place. And that’s [00:10:00] another example. I didn’t slow down and think before getting involved in this business.

 This opportunity came out. Cool. Sure. It sounds like fun. Why not? That was my due diligence. If I had stopped and thought about it, then I’d been like, well, hold up. I have longterm goals and this does not fit into those goals.

This actually makes no sense. So if I were to choose this business, I would be denying my own goals that I have written for myself. And I never made that choice because I never sat down long enough to do it. So yeah. I would say slow down. Listen to your anxiety. Don’t blow off the things that bother you.

And then learn to trust your gut. Get perspective from experts. Don’t ask people you know, or your friends what you should do, that don’t understand. Talk to people in your industry, it’s logo design, don’t ask your mom what she thinks.

Okay, I’m sorry, that’s not.

Zach Oshinbanjo: That’s a part of the, the mom test. 

Sarah Schumacher: Yeah, no you can’t. No, that’s if you’re doing an app and can anybody use it? Ask experts. Ask people in your field that actually understand and have been through it, where you’re at, to get some outside perspective.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, ask people who don’t have a vested interest in your feelings. 

Sarah Schumacher: And [00:11:00] that. And that. Yes. 

Lee Zuvanich: I think that’s the heart of what you’re saying about don’t ask your mom. 

Sarah Schumacher: Well, I’m more thinking about expertise as far as your friend they don’t really understand how business works or how your industry works and they’re just like, Oh no, it looks like you’re so successful.

And they have no idea, right? 

Zach Oshinbanjo: I feel like a lot of their response is going to try to shield and prevent the most emotional and personal damage that they can.

Sarah Schumacher: Yes, that’s a very good point. And that is a really good reason to not do that.

Zach Oshinbanjo: Your biggest critic who’s just gonna.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, if someone has no one, nothing to lose, right? Right. Which is usually a mentor. 

Sarah Schumacher: Yeah, if you have a mentor. But again, it needs to be a mentor in the space, too, because you can get advice from people that are, great business owners, but if they’re not in your space, they might not understand.

The other thing I wanted to point out was that I don’t think you should think of it as failure. I think we’re talking about when to quit. We’re not saying when to fail. I think there’s this fear of well, if I quit I’ve wasted, it’s the sunk cost fallacy. I built this business or I’ve done this thing.

It’s just a permanent pivot. You know? Like, really. 

Lee Zuvanich: It’s just a really hard pivot. 

Sarah Schumacher: It’s a really difficult permanent pivot and there is no [00:12:00] shame in being like, you know what? This one didn’t work out. Move on. Yeah. It’s an experiment. Treat it like an experiment. 

Lee Zuvanich: Well, and I would like to say to that, the reason I haven’t quit on my current businesses, Adva’s been going for seven years, eight years now Appsta, a startup that should just kind of spring up and be profitable in my opinion, but I’ve taken on investments, still haven’t gone to market.

It’s been two and a half years. That’s very antithetical to how I like to do things. Historically, I’ve had other successful businesses since I was 19 years old. I’ve spent 20 years doing this, and I will spring something up, make some money for a year or two, and then if it’s not serving me, I shut it down.

So I’ve never had anything fail. I’ve only had things I quit on before they could fail. 

Sarah Schumacher: That’s a good point, and that would be important to know if you’re a starter or an optimizer, a finisher. Mm hmm. Because that’s gonna play in there. 

Lee Zuvanich: But I regret it. That’s why I’m at this point now because looking back I studied, well how do I get to the next level as an entrepreneur because I’m never going to be really successful if as soon as things get difficult or scary I just shut it down and I’m [00:13:00] meh.

You know, I don’t want to do this anymore. I’m going to go do something else, which I’ve done a lot of. 

Sarah Schumacher: I think it depends on the type of business too, though. Because I think one thing we need to throw in here is, we’ve been talking about the idea of someone being multi passionate or a multi potentialite, or just having a wide range of interests and all of that.

And so if you’re one of those types of people, you may spring up little business ideas all the time because you can’t help it. That’s just sort of how some of us are wired. When to quit could be, you have two different things that you’re working on, and the potential for one is huge, and the potential for other is just, you’re doing it for kicks.

Right? So there’s no shame in being like, this one should not be taking up my time, because this one could be big, and this is the one that I need to actually invest and turn it into something and not quit. This is becoming a distraction.

Zach Oshinbanjo: Yeah, it kind of speaks to finite resources. The opportunity to pursue both would just be illogical. There’s a certain point you have to draw a line where you’re like, okay, I can make a company and we’re making weather detecting weather balloons.

Then on the other end, you’re like, I could probably make a scooter that runs on potato peels or something like that. Be [00:14:00] revolutionary potentially. But I know nothing about renewable and alternative energy sources , but I know a lot about weather, like if you’re a former meteorologist or something, so one of those is obviously going to be an easier lift in something that you should pursue, and then maybe you can put the pieces in place, maybe you Go find somebody who loves scooters and alternative energy sources and you participate but don’t take such a critical role in the development, design, and implementation of whatever that idea is.

Sarah Schumacher: Or you write it down for later. Yeah. 

I have so many things. I have a shortcut. I can save in a couple clicks. Essay ideas, art ideas, business ideas, I have thousands upon thousands of things. But I write them down so I don’t forget them.

And then in the future I can go back to them if I want. And part of it for me is just writing them down. I’m not going to stop and drop everything. Oh I’m going to do this thing now because it’s a cool idea. I’m going to write it down, and if it keeps pestering me at the back of my mind, then I’ll come back to it.

Right? But I think part of it is If you don’t have a system for capturing those things, you can get [00:15:00] sucked into them. Maybe you have a conversation with someone later, hey, here’s an idea, free idea, just 

Lee Zuvanich: I do a lot of that.

Yeah, just give me some equity when you take this idea for a walk. Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah Schumacher: It is hard to focus sometimes when you have a million ideas a minute. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, I never write them down because I want, if it’s really good, it’s gonna come back. I try to let things germinate.

Sarah Schumacher: That feels so risky to me. 

Lee Zuvanich: But in this market, in any market, in any market ever, my whole theory is no good business is gonna, be great and profitable right away, out of your desire for it to be? Or how great of an idea you think it is and how passionate you feel, none of that matters.

What matters is, do I feel like it’s risky enough to say out loud?

First step is, I’m not just sitting on it writing it down. I’m carrying it with me to such an extent that now I’m like, hey, what do you think about this? I can’t put it down. It keeps coming back to me. What do you think?

And so people like you two, would be like, Actually, you know what? I’ve been thinking about that problem too. Why [00:16:00] isn’t anyone solving that problem? If I hear enough of that, then I move on to the next phase of talking to people. Like, oh really? What would you pay for that? Would you pay me for that?

Sarah Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. 

Lee Zuvanich: And that’s where I start to get into trouble. Like I’m going to get a domain name now. Yeah. I’ve always had like five things going at once. I used to meet people in the entrepreneurial community, and I would be blown away by the fact that people would take on debt to go try something.

Because to me that’s like a college degree, going and getting into debt just to get a degree to hope that you’ll enjoy the career. I didn’t do that either. There’s two schools of thought. I found that too risky, so I want to see that it’s going to give me money first. 

Sarah Schumacher: I think it’s also a little bit naive.

Lee Zuvanich: I agree. Yeah. 

Sarah Schumacher: If you’ve been doing the business thing for a long time and you see that and you’re like, nah. 

Lee Zuvanich: You had to go where the money and the energy is like if people are so excited about that idea that now they’re calling you and they’re like, you know, that thing you mentioned me and my cousins and my grandma and everyone I know has this problem and you said it’d be 10 a month.

I’ll give you a hundred dollars a month.

Sarah Schumacher: That’s the important part where they say they’ll give you money. Yeah. Although even though if they say that they’ll give you money, they [00:17:00] don’t always 

Lee Zuvanich: get them to get their wallet out. Yeah. Yeah. Like get a letter of intent.

Zach Oshinbanjo: Interesting you say that that’s my least favorite part Revenue model Validation is probably it’s the hardest part. When you have an idea, I think we can get so consumed with the idea that you want to try to proliferate it into the ecosystem or put it out. You have an idea, you’re just running outside with the sign. Look at this. Yeah. Like you’re trying to show everybody, your kid, look at this. I made this, and you want to do that.

And I think there might be two camps in this. There’s people who might have the viewpoint. Yeah, business it’s got to make money. And then other people are like, no, this, this should be soft. We’ll figure out how I get paid later. And those people don’t raise money because it’s really difficult.

 It’s a harder camp to be in. So when to quit as it applies to me, every idea I think has this big bang ish, poof, it just something inspires you to have an idea and you become really stuck on it. Losing sleep you have little black notebooks you [00:18:00] wake up here’s another point or here’s another idea and then you’re talking about it you’re at a coffee shop and you got hey, what do you what do you think about XYZ?

And they give you just a nugget then you take that and carry it keep talking about it. I think one of those critical steps is you get the information and it adds to the context So you’re not just like wow this thing I thought of 30 years ago is brilliant and it’s gonna go forward Are you getting new information?

And what are you doing with that information? You need to be able to take in the new information and make some changes from that. The changes need to be able to come into the process. Oh, this is actually more important. Oh, this is more important. You can only get so much information before your idea takes a completely new form.

And that’s the point when it’s like, okay, I keep changing it . It’s a new thing. Either it’s a new thing or you were so far off base when you originally conceptualized the idea that maybe it was time to let it go. Your idea has changed and drifted so much that maybe that could be in some cases a quitting point or a time for people to be able to.

[00:19:00] Move on, set it to pasture, or some other. Yeah, 

Sarah Schumacher: How do we relate that back to when to quit? Because I feel like we are getting off on this tangent again. Oh, I’m totally following. 

when I think when to quit, I go back to what to say yes to. Because it’s so tied into it.

Lee Zuvanich: But also when to start something so much more fun to talk about. 

Sarah Schumacher: Which to be fair is why we’re doing this. Yeah, we’re all starters. I think we’re all starters.

 It’s just all about balance. 

Lee Zuvanich: But when, when do you shut the 

Zach Oshinbanjo: whole point of this? So when to quit, I would say is more. If you’ve taken in all this information and all of your theories, hypothesis, everything that you’ve considered, every angle, you’re like, okay, what if I do this?

What if I do this? And it’s all roadblock, roadblock, roadblock. Doesn’t make sense. It might be time to move on.

Sarah Schumacher: If there’s not a clear path forward. 

Zach Oshinbanjo: Yeah. You’ve explored every, you’ve ping ponged around. I’ve had different ideas. I’ve been exploring for years.

But I feel like every time I’m ready to put it in a trunk [00:20:00] and slide it to the back of the closet and lock it up, I get a little bit more information that almost tells me why the previous iteration wasn’t going to work. But eventually you pivot into a corner. I’ve explored this from every possible way that can be explored. So that would be a time when it’s time to hang it up because at that point it also starts to interfere with other things that you’re doing.

 There’s also this part it’s called the three deaths of a business.

There’s the death of self view, the death of external view, and the death of expansion or something like that. The guy who helped to create statins for lowering cholesterol. He brought it up, people laughed at him for 30 years, and they were like, wow, this must be a dumb idea.

And then he started, took it to his company, and they were like, that’s a dumb idea. And then he took it to a larger company, and they were like, we can’t scale that. And now it’s responsible for one of those Pfizer Eli Lilly type companies

Sarah Schumacher: 80 percent of the revenue Yeah, it’s the seed of an idea [00:21:00] and the original idea is Sprung off from that in some way and it’s not the core.

But what’s the thing that keeps stringing you along and how do you find that iteration? It’s what I’m hearing you say. There’s something there. And I just need to keep looking at all the different ways I can pursue it. So, when to quit would be there is no more left of that, I guess.

Zach Oshinbanjo: If you find yourself backed into a corner, you can’t redesign it, you can’t map it, changing the company name’s not gonna re motivate you and things like that. 

Sarah Schumacher: Yeah. 

Lee Zuvanich: Oh, the money’s not there. That’s a good one. 

Sarah Schumacher: What if you’re not the right person, too? Maybe you discover something that’s ooh, actually this is too difficult, so.

Zach Oshinbanjo: End it off. Give it So I think that all kind of applies to all of our different experiences with trying to know when to quit. I will know it’s time to quit when I can’t flip it. I can’t redesign it. I can’t do anything with it. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, I feel that way. And I’ve had to grieve shutting down a business. I did have one of my more successful businesses before my [00:22:00] agency. I mean, it died. And it was because I hired the wrong person. I trusted the wrong people. They basically took my business out from under me. And I think part of the grieving process was, this was my first time with a brick and mortar location. So I was finally feeling like a real entrepreneur. And it felt like I was losing that identity. And I actually, I was so broken hearted by it, I went back to school for civil engineering, which is not me at all.

And I did pretty well actually. I do enjoy study and engineering and stuff, but I did that because, I told people I could never be an entrepreneur again. It broke me. I trusted people that I never thought would betray me, apparently that’s just doing business.

That’s what people kept telling me. Oh, that’s just how it is, toughen up. And I was like, no. All I want to do is help people. Why does it have to be this hard? Of course it’s a long story, but I ended up obviously back in this seat talking about being an entrepreneur. And I think if I had known that that’s an [00:23:00] identity, I didn’t have to grieve and lose.

I was shutting down at location. 

Sarah Schumacher: I think the word grieve is important because it absolutely is a grieving process. But it should be grieving the ending of something, not the ending of you. Separate those things, for sure. But there absolutely should be a grieving process, because if you pour your heart and soul into something, then you decide to walk away, that’s a big deal.

And you need to be prepared for all the stages of grief that come with that. That’s very normal. And that’s totally fine, and that’s not something that should prevent you from walking away, if that’s what you need to do. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, I’m grateful I walked away now. I don’t want to be a yoga studio owner anymore. 

Sarah Schumacher: For context you should tell people there was a yoga studio because you went from yoga to civil engineering. Big leap. Very big leap. 

Lee Zuvanich: But those are two sides of my personality that still exist. I kind of miss teaching yoga still. 

Sarah Schumacher: I always get back to creativity is just linking different things or different fields together. So the multi passionate people are gonna be the most creative in whatever they’re doing because they have such a wide range of interests. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, and they have to learn to do this whole Does it work? No, it doesn’t. Grieve. Move [00:24:00] on.

I’m still a multi passionate person with lots of interests and abilities. And I’m an entrepreneur for life. Now I believe it’s a mental illness. It’s in my DNA. It actually goes back generations in my family. We’re entrepreneurs. 

Sarah Schumacher: That’s what tells you an entrepreneur, you went through hell and then you’re like, Nope, I’m gonna do it again.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. I can’t not solve a problem. I’m sorry. Yeah. 

Zach Oshinbanjo: Keep going back.

Sarah Schumacher: You can’t not solve a problem. Yeah. It’s just tenacity. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. You’re in a corporate environment and they get mad at you for solving problems so much. That’s when you know, I think.

Zach Oshinbanjo: I think it was a pretty robust and well rounded conversation. I think we can probably call it on that unless we have any other closing. 

Lee Zuvanich: I don’t know, should we quit? 

Sarah Schumacher: Quit which thing? 

Lee Zuvanich: The podcast. We should stop this episode. 

Zach Oshinbanjo: We should quit this episode. 

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah.

Sarah Schumacher: Okay, that’s a wrap.