Episode 20: How to Run a Business Without Killing Yourself

Lee Zuvanich: welcome to Founder Problems. I’m Lee Zuvanich, and I’m joined today by my co-hosts, Sarah and Zach

Sarah: I’m Sarah Schumacher and I build websites for service-based businesses

Zach: I’m Zach Oshinbanjo, and I try to build houses.

Lee Zuvanich: Hopefully successfully. And

Yeah.

and I try to build apps.

Zach: At

Lee Zuvanich: and today… Yeah, we’re all trying, which is what matters. And today we are talking about health, founder health, and the things that we’ve found that work or don’t work for us as we’re trying to build something bigger than ourselves.

Sarah: Without, without killing ourselves in the process, I think.

Lee Zuvanich: Exactly.

Sarah: Even the intro, it’s like, “Building bigger things,” like, “and taking care of ourselves.”

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we’re all trying, [00:01:00] we’re

Sarah: Try

Lee Zuvanich: and we’re and we’re also trying to make sure that we sleep eight hours a night or whatever it is that, you know, is a, a cornerstone for, for each of us individually, and they’re all different. So that’s what we’ll be discussing today, stuck, what’s flopped, and routines that we wish we’d built sooner. So just to kick it off, either one of you, if you wanna jump it right in, let’s talk about the number one positive habit that you’ve made that has stuck over time? You didn’t just try it for 30 days and abandon it, but maybe for weeks, months, or years, it’s something that you keep coming back to

Zach: I, mine mine’s probably pretty simple. I’ll say mine has been, like, working out. There’s always been of physical fitness kind of as a holdover from my former profession as a

Lee Zuvanich: for a wrestler?

Sarah: Age fighter.

Zach: yeah,

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah

Zach: so I, I, I found it to just be very helpful. I think initially when I switched into that, [00:02:00] work that I used to do, I wasn’t as much of an enthusiast for working out, but now I couldn’t imagine a day doing it, and there’s even days probably where probably counter, counterproductive to the nature of this conversation.

But even if I’m running on two, three hours, I’ll, you know, cram some C4s and go ahead and find a will and a way because I’m just, I’m j- I’m not m- Sleep is less of an issue than not working out for me. If I don’t

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zach: it throws my entire kind of flow, cadence, abil- ability to articulate th- everything off, and even mood. And it’s very– It’s within two days of deviating from schedule that people around me can notice, like, “Are you working out?” And I’ll say, “I haven’t.” “Go, go work out.” So that’s, that’s probably one of the things

Lee Zuvanich: you say people, do you mean your wife?

Zach: Why? Maybe, maybe even my kid can,

Lee Zuvanich: Oh, wow

Zach: she can [00:03:00] see it now like, “That’s not as fun today.” So yeah, I n- I need to

Lee Zuvanich: That face was a wife face. You, you may not, for those at home not watching.

Zach: So

Lee Zuvanich: That’s amazing

Zach: say the past 12 years consistently in some format. I think the most time I’ve ever taken off was maybe like four days, and that was like on a cruise ship somewhere when I was like, “Eh, this isn’t practical to do.” But even if I go on a trip, I make sure I save a little pocket for some s- some shorts, some bendy shoes, and

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm.

Zach: a, a hoodie so that I can work out wherever I am

Lee Zuvanich: I do that too, and then I just don’t do the workout once I get there.

Sarah: I was gonna say the fact that you say, like, people can tell or, like, I think this is just, like, the whole key component we should come back to is that everybody’s different. Like, the benefit of us three people doing this is we’re all different. We’re all gonna have different things, but that applies to people listening.

So the fact that you know for yourself, like, that this [00:04:00] affects you in that way and to the point where people around you will mention it, is, like, that’s its own motivation. Like, you can’t … Like, it’s, it’s a lot harder to let go of a habit that when you know that it’s gonna have that big of an impact, ’cause you’ve s- it’s like a cause and effect thing, and I think a lot of times the stuff that we try doesn’t

It’s not that obvious. So mine is not, like, I wish, I wish mine was working out. I’m more, like, about mental. Like, my, mine’s, like, all about the brain. I hate even existing in a physical body, so I have gotten better about working out lately, but mine’s always, like, brain stuff. So I think mine, my answer to this question as far, in terms of, you know, what’s the number one positive habit, is probably bullet journaling.

And I’m not even super consistent about that now, but that is something … I’ve, I’m a writer. I’ve written my entire life. I have poetry I’ve written since I could form letters as a child. Like, I, I have to write. It’s a thing. And so I’ve always journaled to some extent, and I sort of started bullet journaling after having a kid and having to process a lot of [00:05:00] stuff.

So the difference I guess I’d say between bullet journaling and journaling is with bullet journaling, it’s kind of bringing in an aspect of, of planning. It’s like, I call it, like, drawing your own planner. I don’t get into it. Like, you look crap up online and it’s like, oh, wow, there’s all these fancy spreads.

I don’t do that crap. I’m very utilitarian. So what it means is things like I have a month spread and I’m like, “Okay, what, what projects do I need to get done this month?” And I just, just the act of writing them down, I mean, like, okay, by the end of the month, I wanna have X done, you know, things. I have a mantra that I try to go through that’s in there.

I have, like, you know, people that I try to connect with, like who, who do I need to connect with this month or whatever. So it’s just more of, like, it’s not just processing your thoughts at the end of the day. It’s also, like, tracking habits so I can see, you know, did I, how many times did I work out this week?

And like, ooh, I really need to, like, this one’s way behind, and also looking at other Like top of… It’s just keeping priorities top of mind. I guess that’s the, why it’s the biggest impact. [00:06:00] So it’s not even, it’s not even about like what you think of in terms of journaling and processing your thoughts, it’s more about just thinking about bigger picture stuff on a daily basis.

And I’ve, I really slacked off over the last year, so I don’t wanna be like, “Oh, yeah, I do this every single night.” Like, I’ve, I really, like, I think I did not do hardly anything the month of April ’cause it was so chaotic, and so it’s like there’s a big old chu- gap in April. And then I’m back into it in May ’cause things like I’m, I’m getting better, but like last year was not good either.

So it’s, again, I don’t wanna make it sound like I’m amazing at this, but at the same time, it is a habit that has stuck. I get a new bullet journal every year. I think through all the stuff I want that year to have or be, and I’ve been doing that for a decade at this point. So that’s probably my best answer for that.

Lee Zuvanich: Or both,

Zach: Yeah

Lee Zuvanich: both of your answers, these are things I wish I was doing. So at the end we’re gonna talk about maybe how, what a, what’s a good on-ramp into the habits you have now. Maybe you can give me some tips. ’cause I want to do those things, but for me you know, they say [00:07:00] we, we don’t rise to the level of our, our goals we fall to the level of our systems. so those things that you guys have described are goals for me, but my system that I have to have, that I can’t live without, is making sure I get enough sleep. I wish it was a cooler one like, or one that’s more, feels like it’s more intentional, like getting up and working out or journaling. When you talk about sleep being an core part of your system that sounds silly to me even, like intellectually.

Like, how is that a system? You just in bed. You actually, like I’m teaching this to my kids right now, who are both just about college age or going into college this fall, and they need to learn that if you don’t sleep, you don’t function. And, you know, right now they’re trying to pull things like all-nighters to cram for a certain, like, due date for, for schoolwork or something, and then they will get…

Like, my daughter will get physically ill, and I’m the same way as her. I’ll get physically ill. My son, he’s weird. He’ll just keep [00:08:00] going. Like, nothing touches him. He never gets sick. but I, I mean, I think it’s just genetic maybe. But I’ll get, like, acid reflux and asthma issues and, and like cognitively I’ll be very, very, very different if I haven’t slept enough.

If I get six hours of sleep nights out of the week I will get a respiratory infection if I do that the course of a few weeks in a row. And that week everyone will know something’s off with me, and they’ll be like, “You need more sleep. What’s wrong with you? Go lay down.” kind of like Zach except- With something that sounds easier, but for me it’s not easy to do.

I can’t just go get in bed and just go to sleep. Like, I lay in bed and think of ideas and things I wanna be working on, and I get back up. And I used to pull all-nighters. Even, like, I’m 40 now, and when I started Appsta, which turned into SomaBase over the last three or four years that I’ve been working on that, I’m doing my consulting, Ava Digital Solutions, whatever, during the day, and then the startup at night. [00:09:00] And the startup stuff I’m excited about, I wouldn’t want to sleep, and I wouldn’t feel the need to sleep, and I’d go get hyper-fixated on building this idea, whether it was, like, pitch deck designing or being in the code or the design. Whatever, whatever part of that business, I’m excited about it, and I would k- check in with my- myself and be like, “Shouldn’t I be sleeping?” And the answer would be, “But I don’t n- I don’t feel the need to. I don’t want to. I’m having fun.” If I’m having fun, isn’t that, like, the best metric? Turns out no, the best metric is whether or not you’ve been to the ER for not sleeping enough , which I ended up having to do. So I learned the hard way.

Like, my body started teaching me a lesson after lesson until I got it, which was if I don’t sleep, get serious health issues, which, you know, it’s a long story. Stems back from when I ha- did have chronic illness for two years. I have serious mold allergies, and I lived in more than [00:10:00] one moldy building, and it’s turned into, like, I get respiratory flare-ups now if I don’t sleep enough.

Sleep has just become, between that and the concussions I’ve had from a couple of car accidents brain health and sleep are very closely connected. I get migraines with aura, which is a type of seizure. That’s also predicated by lack of sleep for me. I sleep, everything goes right. Everything is good. So it’s a really long way of saying that, but I think as and entrepreneurs who are very driven people, it can be one that’s very easy to overlook and ignore. You know, just kind of like, “Oh, I know I need to work out, I know I need to eat right, I know I need to hydrate and sleep. Whatever, Mom.” And it’s just, it’s important to, like, check in with yourself and realize if that’s a correlator to your, like, performing better or worse. You really do have to learn to take it seriously.

Sarah: Hmm

Lee Zuvanich: moving on. What is something that didn’t work? Some prot- productivity tip or health tip that you tried and it just didn’t work out for you[00:11:00]

Zach: I’ll, I’ll go ’cause it definitely piggybacks off of what your your, your good thing was, Lee, and that is sleep. I, I used to be a, somebody who tried to pursue it, but I’ve not found a way to effectively get everything done to corral the mind. The,

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Zach: animals are amuck in the zoo at nighttime, so I kind of get to sleep when I get to sleep now.

Lee Zuvanich: Uh-huh

Zach: if it’s, if it’s two, three hours, I mean, even now with young, young family and some different things got going

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm.

Zach: I’m going to sleep midnight-ish, waking up at 1:00, at 2:00, at 3:00, at 4:00, at 5:00, getting the kid ready at 7:00. So it’s, like, very inconsistent, but I still push through.

I cram a bunch of cordyceps mushrooms and keep it moving. So I think [00:12:00] sleep is one of those areas has eluded me. I– although

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah

Zach: everybody says, “Oh, you gotta sleep, you gotta sleep.” But, you know, it’s… That’s probably the hardest thing. There’s working out. You set aside one hour, you do a journal, you do some writing, one hour, two hours.

Sleep? Do nothing for eight hours?

Sarah: Yeah

Lee Zuvanich: Exactly. It feels like a waste. It’s so annoying.

Sarah: Well, and some of us like, I mean, if I try to go to bed at like an hour that normal early to bed people go to, like it- my brain, it doesn’t work. Like, it’s a waste of my time. I can’t, I can’t fall asleep ’cause I’m, I have like a later whatever schedule, sleep schedule. So it’s like,

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah

Sarah: I’m just trashed from like not getting sleep the night before or, you know, something, whatever is different that will help me fall asleep quicker, I don’t.

My brain doesn’t wanna shut off. So that’s partly why I read before bed. And no business books. That’s why I read like manga and manhwa, and lately I’ve been reading Terry [00:13:00] Pratchett, which is delightful. So,

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Sarah: like I’ll do something that’s going to not make me think about work stuff, and that’s the only…

But I can’t, I can’t go to bed like super early, so that t- ties into my answer which I can’t get up s- like the, the do the 5:00 AM Zach schedule does not work for me. I would like it. The thing is, once I’m awake, I’m awake. The, I’m not like gonna be groggy. Like I will, like if I have to get up at 5:00 AM, I will be, I will be awake as soon as I’m up.

But it’s just not, it’s like trying to force my body into a schedule that doesn’t work for it, I think. I don’t really think that’s healthy long term. My brain wakes up in the evenings. So my version of, you know, I’m not gonna, I’m never gonna try to get up at 5:00 AM, but my version is like, “Okay, can I get up 30 minutes earlier than normal so I can do a workout before I take the kid to school instead of dropping him off and then doing it while I’m making my coffee or whatever?”

Like that, that would give me a little bit more buffer space, and that would, like it’s whatever. It’s 30 minutes. Who cares? So that’s my version of that. Like I’m not gonna try to get up super early ’cause I just don’t, that’s just not, not what works for me. And I’m not doing it lately, but I [00:14:00] would work in the evenings, too.

Like I, I try not to do that anymore, but a lot of times, like if I am busy, I will, once I put the kid to bed, I will go have a couple more hours in the studio to get work done. So that, you know, again, that’s my version of that. Like I’m not gonna go, “Oh, get up super early so you can knock out all the email” or whatever.

Like, “Do your deep work early in the morning before people bother you.” My version of that would be go, after the kid’s in bed, do my work that’s can’t be interrupted in the evening. So the early get up earlier to shove the crap in your day like doesn’t, I’m not doing that.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, I agree, and this is not good advice. It’s just where I am right now. But because my sleep is so important but also I have so much to do all the time, I, I don’t feel like it’s very negotiable. I will not sleep when I should. I’d like to be asleep by maybe midnight every night. Right now, I think I stay up till around 4:00 AM every night or later sometimes, but that’s ’cause I’ve, I’ve been in Europe with US clients, and so that changes my [00:15:00] schedule that I personally enjoy, and it doesn’t really bother me. but if I– Like, let’s say I’ve got 15, 20 hours of work ahead of me that I just need to get done in the next 24 hours. Instead of sleeping for four hours and then getting up at 5:00 AM like, just plowing through my day in a, in a, in a weird state, probably the same s- mental fog Zach gets when he doesn’t work out. My brain just doesn’t work. My body doesn’t work, and now I’m trying to do all that work on not enough sleep. That doesn’t work for me. Plus I get

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lee Zuvanich: when I’m hyper-focused, I’m a freaking machine, and, like, nothing matters. Sleep doesn’t matter. My body doesn’t exist. I can just sit at my computer and just do all the work. But if I get interrupted by something like, “Oh, time to take the kids to school”- Not only is it a waste, I am furious. I like, I am bitter because I know that I was on something I could’ve [00:16:00] done for 20 hours, but, you know, not now. There’s this Matthew McConaughey meme that my kids and I love where it’s, it’s him in Interstellar saying, “That little maneuver’s gonna cost us 21 years.” And below it, it just says like, “When you’re hyper-focused and then you try to take a quick break.” And because, like, you’re never getting that time back. It’s just not happening for you. You might need to wait a week and then eventually circle back to another hyper-focused session. So I cannot pin my ability to do deep focused work on my ability to get up at 5:00 AM, somehow caffeinate, you know, in the right window.

Don’t wa- don’t do it for 40 minutes. Then like do it all, do your whole morning routine, out, journal, and then get into hyper-focused work, and then all of a sudden the kids are awake. Like, th- this is a podcast for people with kids, I think. ‘Cause we all … Like, that’s a serious struggle. And, and you know, if you don’t have kids but you’re one of the people, like a boss, you’re doing this, and you think you’re gonna get [00:17:00] your edge on your day, but then at 9:00 AM people start wandering into the office.

This would happen, too. I’d go to the office, people would come in, and of course they just want a piece of me. So for me, it’s better to do not just a night routine, but my answer to what did or didn’t work for me is also like looking at anyone else’s schedule or just block time in your schedule.

That is the worst tip for me. I hate that tip. Oh, just, just do time blocking. Because I, first of all, will ignore it, ’cause who’s in charge of that? Me. also I have a hard time knowing when I will drop into that hyper-focused state. It’s like a little bit of magic along with the other elements, and I have to s- set it up so that I can drop into it. So if I’ve got a routine where every night when it gets dark and quiet I drop into that state, if I happen to be in front of a computer, that’s just the easiest thing. so ignoring time blocking and riding those waves of focus, which I always talk about. I always talk about following the energy. That’s why. It’s [00:18:00] because it’s the only thing that works for me. So

Zach: you, you can definitely get a lot, especially like something as mundane for me like dishes, cleaning up the house. I’ll put in some AirPods, put

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Mm.

Zach: Nine Inch Nails, and I’ll just go to town just

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah

Zach: But once, like, you feel a little pat on your back, somebody asking for a fruit cup or something like that,

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Zach: productivity out the window

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Sarah: Yeah. That’s funny ’cause I actually just realized the other day, like, we were– The kid was at gr- the grandparents for the weekend or something, and, like, that Saturday, like, we got so much stuff done, and it’s like, man, it is so much easier to get stuff done when he’s gone. Why is that? And usually he’s supposed to be helping with chores, and so maybe that’s why it’s like, “Hey, have you done that thing I asked you?”

I don’t have to worry about that. Just, yeah, put the, put the podcast on. So

Lee Zuvanich: I’ve been a single parent since my kids were little, and, so they’d go over to their other parent’s house on the weekends, and I would… I could do anything [00:19:00] in that time. It was amazing. I’d be like, “Deep clean the garage? Why not? I know I’ll get it done.” No one’s gonna be underfoot being like, “Oh, don’t throw that away.

That’s a tennis racket I once used.” Like, I can just do it.

Zach: I love that thing that’s been in

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. What are you doing?

Sarah: I haven’t looked at it forever. That’s what I did last weekend.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah.

Sarah: what are… Do we wanna, like, talk about the core habits that have stuck as far as, like, like we covered, like what we, that does not work for us, but like what, what are the core things? ‘Cause I think one of the things that we need to make sure we cover here is that it’s taken us a long time to get any of these things established.

It’s not like, “Oh, we just started doing this last year. Yeah, I just started bullet journaling last week. It’s great.” It’s time, like you, I think you have to have a realization that you need to actually manage your health at some point, and then you have to make a decision, and then you have to keep stacking those decisions.

So over time, what are the things that we’ve been stacking that has, like, stuck around? Outside of the, the number one things that we’ve mentioned, like what’s our, our personal [00:20:00] founder health stack, I guess?

Lee Zuvanich: Hmm. I like that for me, one that goes way back for me 20 years, if not more is eating right. So I’ve always been a kind of a nut about healthy food, the ethics of how your food is prepared. you know, I was a vegan when I was 19, vegetarian for years before that, and then when I started having kids, that all went out the window.

It’s just impossible to eat healthy like, do everything perfectly with, with children, in my opinion. Like, they make it complicated and difficult, and they just want chicken nuggets all the time.

Zach: Agreed.

Lee Zuvanich: yeah. But I, I did do, like, all whole food. You know, I, I did start eating meat and dairy, but, like, a little bit of everything.

I was raising my own chickens and, and learning how to butcher them at one point ’cause I was like, “I still wanna be ethical.” That wasn’t sustainable for me or my kids ’cause we- they became pets. In general, eating healthy, like the supplements I take, [00:21:00] the… I think I have some right here actually. I’m doing this powder that tastes like lollipops. I’ve got this in the house so I can get my kids to take it too instead of, like, soda or something. If they want something that has a flavor, we’ll have, like, a creatine drink, and I do this in the mornings because it’s not just for pre-workout.

It’s good for brain which I just use my brain like a muscle. Like, I, I put it through a lot, and I work really hard, mentally, and so it helps with that. And then I’ve got this other, like, PowerUp series with things like L-theanine in it and B vitamins and stuff, and then I take other v- vitamins and fiber and chia seeds and all that.

So I’ve spent 20 years learning not just how to eat healthy, but to, like, bake it into a stressful, kid-oriented environment where we’re all busy and learning how to meal prep and all that. I think that that’s a cornerstone I come back to regularly[00:22:00]

Zach: I would say mine is going to be So I, I very much I was on the path of the right fuel in my body. That took a long time and a lot of doctor’s appointments and high cortisol, lipids

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Zach: HDL, LDL, all the abbreviations just being that aren’t good for you. Being, you know, having to get a CPAP and stuff like that in my early 30s, and just all this other

Lee Zuvanich: Hmm

Zach: So that, that’s kind of helped to shift mine. But I think my core tenets or habits that I’ve kind of kept is I’m very– I guess it’s visual, so I, I write things that need to be done, like task, and that’s been one of the, my key things is I end up and I have to eventually delete them as I kind of just write notes and/or [00:23:00] messages of things that need to be done, ’cause my m- my– that’s way easier.

Like if somebody– I’m getting up to get a drink of water or something like that, and then my wife’s like, “Oh, do this and this on the way back.” I’m like, “Just text it to me. I’m not gonna remember. I’m not going to.” So I have to be

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah

Zach: see it. It’s easier for me to remember information that’s like visual and seen like that.

So able to have lists and organize information like that is probably my, my core thing that I’ve probably done for the last… That’s been a building block, I guess, for the last decade or so, and that’s also helped the workouts because I write. Obviously, I have to write the workouts down.

Sarah: Hmm

Lee Zuvanich: Wait, so if you didn’t write your workouts down, you wouldn’t do them?

Zach: Probably not. It’s

Lee Zuvanich: Is that what I’m missing?

Zach: it’s a what do you call it? Like a, a productivity death note. You just have to write it into existence or write it so

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about

Lee Zuvanich: I don’t. [00:24:00] I need to know all about that. I don’t know if we have time, but I need to know about that at some

Sarah: You,

Lee Zuvanich: we can revisit that

Sarah: you should check out Darebee. I’ll link it in the show notes Lee. Just sound like, like it sounds Darebee. It’s a it’s an app, or like not an app, it’s just like a website that has like just pick a workout thing or whatever, and it just like gives you a schedule. ‘Cause that’s what I use when I actually am like…

Because I’ve actually been trying to like make more time to work out, and so I’ll just use that and be like, pick a like package thing, and it’s like, “Okay, day one you do this, day two you do this, day three…” That’s, that’s literally it. And I’m like, “Okay, cool,” when it’s like weights or something

Lee Zuvanich: that do that for you over and over again, but I then, I won’t use them unless I make it to the gym. So then the only way I get to the gym is if I force- if I say like, “Okay, the only thing I need to do is show up to the gym in workout clothes. I don’t have to specifically

Sarah: see, I just, I don’t go to the gym. I, like, just do stuff at home. I’m never gonna go anywhere. I don’t leave my house. Also, I just, I just realized you meant the Death Note anime. I just saw your shonen, Zach. I didn’t catch… That’s what I thought of, but I thought maybe you were referring to something, like, [00:25:00] more broadly speaking.

Actually was not a fan of that anime

Lee Zuvanich: was like, that’s why I was like, “We gotta unpack this later,” ’cause

Sarah: Yeah, it’s a Death Note anime. I have a review. I can link to my review on that one. That was actually one of my lesser favorite animes, but just because of my personal taste. It’s still good if you like that kind of thing. But anyway, that’s funny. So my, my things on this, I agree with Zach on writing.

I am a list maker, planner. Like, I have I live and die by my n- my note-taking app that I just, like, constantly, I… Just everything. I put everything in there. Epiphanies, I track my supplement things. I have, like, shortcuts, like s- save. Like, I can tell you every supplement I’ve taken for the last two years or whatever.

All that stuff. So like, I just live in this note-taking thing to get it out of my head and somewhere to track. And it’s not like project management, it’s more just processing in a spot I can refer to later, I guess. So I have to have some sort of, like, writing thing as, as well. I mean, I do use my…

Sometimes use my bullet journal for that, but it’s, again, I don’t do… I’m not gonna look at that, like, when I’m like, “Oh, what was

Lee Zuvanich: you would have a keyword [00:26:00] search enabled. Like, is it an app?

Sarah: Yeah, no, it’s like documents. So like I, I created a, a, like I have a, a projects, like a home projects list that I have like all the May stuff, and I’ve got like, “Here’s all the errands that need to be run in May. Here’s the home project,” like whatever, organization stuff, cleaning stuff, stuff that has to be done by the end of the month, whatever.

Like I have like, just got a checklist ’cause I, I think of it, and then that’s where I put it. And I make like physical lists on the weekends. So like weekends, like I have a notepad that I leave on the counter so I can like write the kids, you know, like, “Hey, you need to do this. Water the garden today,” or whatever.

But that’s, that’s like a smaller chunk. So I, I have to kinda write things out as well to process it. I think probably reading is one for me. I, I’ve read in the evening for years. That’s typically how I’m reading. I mean, I usually read 50 books a year. I’m probably not gonna hit that this year because I’ve…

I started reading a lot of manga and manhwa, which is the Korean version of that last year because I, I had slacked off on my reading. [00:27:00] It’s ’cause I usually read nonfiction. But I, I have to… Reading and writing is just like, that’s just, it’s, it’s a com- I have to do both of those things. Like I have to write, process by writing, but then I also have to be consuming books.

It’s just like, it’s my happy place. And so I switched to starting r- like reading manga because it was too mentally taxing to be reading nonfiction anymore. It’s like I don’t wanna read more about how horrible the world is or whatever. Like I’m reading a book right now about how a certain famous like f- founder guy is terrible actually.

Like stuff like that, I, I just, I couldn’t… You know, it’s not like everything I read is that. Like I’ll read productivity stuff. I just read a book about the opposite of productivity or whatever. But I switched to that so I could keep the reading habit because I ha- I just have to be reading something. And so I’ve kinda gotten back more in, I- not so much fiction ’cause I don’t, I don’t wanna stay up till 2:00 AM reading a, a, you know, I, I will stay up too late reading.

So the manhwa is like smaller digestible chu- chunks of it, not that I … Not that that doesn’t mean I [00:28:00] also still stay up to read, late reading manga. That’s absolutely happened a few times lately. It’s like, “Just one more chapter,” and it’s like 10 chapters later and it’s like, “Oh crap, like this is really good.”

That happens a lot too, but I, I’ve,

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah

Sarah: it’s just my happy place. I have to, I have to make time for that in the, usually in the evenings ’cause again, if I’m able to like read in the evenings, it gets me out of this head space of, “Oh crap, what’s the stuff I didn’t get done today? What are the projects I need to work on tomorrow?”

So I have, I have to read. I have to…

Lee Zuvanich: back out of bed is

Sarah: Yes, exactly. And I won’t get, go to bed for it. Like I will, I will make a note or something, or I’ll just like try to distract myself, but that’s, that’s a thing I have to do, like

Lee Zuvanich: I

Sarah: I- important

Lee Zuvanich: I’ve tried to teach my kids is if you’re laying there making excuses for why something didn’t get done, just get up and do it. I feel that’s like a, not a personal belief system so much as just, like, it’s just how I’m wired, and I’ve realized that that is probably one of the things that has made me successful is I, if I think, “Oh, man, tomorrow in the, in the meeting with the client, I’m gonna [00:29:00] have to explain why this didn’t get done,” I can’t stand that feeling.

I would rather just get up and do it.

Sarah: Yeah, it, the rule

Lee Zuvanich: gonna be comfortable with just be like, “Oh, I’ll just write it down.” I

Sarah: You should, well, it’s… Yeah, I mean, that’s more of me being a list maker, but you- actually the rule is if you can’t fall asleep after a certain amount of time, you should get up and, and not stay in bed awake and frustrated. You should actually get out. And so that may not actually be bad advice, so. The other thing I’d add to that really quick, though, is meditation.

I think that’s probably, like, my main answer, is, like, I’ve been meditating for, like, a decade at this point, and I, I always make time to try to fit it in. It may not always be… It’s not every day. It might be, like, once a week if it’s crazy. But I always… That’s just, that’s a consistent thing I, I have. I am always at some point working that in, even if it’s not as much as I want.

I mean, I used to, in the beginning, I would meditate 20 minutes at a time. If I can only do five minutes, it’s better than nothing. I’ll do five. I try to shoot for, like, 10 a day at this point, ’cause it’s a little bit in between. And then the other thing that I do is, like, I have to take a B vitamin. So I also have, like, supplements that I deal with.

I have Hashimoto’s, [00:30:00] so I manage that with supplements, so I do keep up on those for the most part. But there’s specifically, I have the gene that doesn’t, we don’t process the B vitamin, the mother effer gene, I like to call

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: it. The MTHFR gene. I, so I, if I don’t take a B vitamin, if I miss it a few days, I will notice.

So I do have to be consistent about that one. So those are my, my core things.

Lee Zuvanich: I think we have that in my family too, and people get B vitamin shots. It’s good stuff.

Sarah: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do a shot for that. Yeah, just take,

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah.

Sarah: so.

Lee Zuvanich: Just take, yeah,

Sarah: so what, if we were starting over on all this stuff, what what’s the one piece of advice we would give to ourselves if you’re like, “Okay, I’m starting with some … I’m gonna build my first habit,” what’s the first one we would all do, say to do to our younger selves?

Lee Zuvanich: Date better people.

Sarah: Actually, yeah. That’s legit. People underestimate that. That, that factors in, but yes

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah. No, when I, I think back to 20 years ago when I was really getting hardcore about how to you know, [00:31:00] optimize, right? Do better in life and make myself into a better person. thought I was doing h- healthy food and yoga, and then I was trashing my, like, nervous system, and my time and my energy and my mental state with the cognitive dissonance of dating someone who said one thing and did another. More than one person. That just became, that was just something that was a phase I went through, was dating people who did that. I learned over 20 years of trying to figure out, you know, to therapy, dating, relationships, improving stuff granularly over a time, if I’m single, I don’t get migraines. So it was hitting my body in a way that I didn’t even understand when I was just choosing to, like, roll the dice with a relationship. And yeah, I mean, Sarah, you could probably talk about that ’cause you’ve been with someone for 20 years, and I feel like you know how important it [00:32:00] is, but you did it right. But

Sarah: Yeah, I can’t imagine, like, not having, like, the part- it’s like, it’s a partnership. It should be a partnership. It should feel like a partnership, and if it didn’t, I would just be single. Like, like there’s– I, I don’t understand what people tolerate ’cause it’s like, it’s so much… It could be amazing when you…

Lee Zuvanich: Sarah.

Sarah: I know, no, I literally just had a conversation about this recently with someone who was like, “I had to, I had to understand that I was not, like, valuing myself, and that is why I kept getting in th-these relationships.” So there’s a deeper– go to therapy, a deeper thing there

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm. Yep

Sarah: So Zach, what do you think your takeaway or your, your one thing would be?

Zach: I’d, I’d probably say, you know, it, it always, it always sucks at the beginning. I mean, any habit, any, any change, anything that you have to do consistently, especially if it is, you know, waking up at the crack of dawn and you’re working out or doing all these things, and I think people see the end result or like a, you know, love him, hate him, whatever the situation may be, like a David Goggins [00:33:00] who’s just, “Get some.”

He’s, like,

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah.

Zach: all the time and doing that sort of thing.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, he’s intense

Zach: to start with. Even believe what you want about his background and all that or not, but his– I mean, he started and he wasn’t some ultra-marathoner or whatever he does now. He was, he was a, a different guy all around.

So I think the initial onset of it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s not pleasant. But now it’s so natural and fluid to me. Now I could just wake up 4:00, 5:00, 6:00 AM, no alarm, and be like, “Eh, okay, let’s go.” And

Lee Zuvanich: Hmm

Zach: working out within six and a half minutes of waking up, just be ready to go, it’s just so down pat.

But that was not the start.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zach: it’s– That’s, like, a decade of the same thing for a long time where it just gets easier and it becomes more natural. I think the biggest thing about habits is it has to be something that can be implemented into your existing life and not be crazy. [00:34:00] That’s, like, the main thing with food. You can’t just say go from eating trash can nachos and eating, you know, sampler trays by yourself. Not that I’ve ever done that, wink, wink. But you, you can’t go from that to then being like, “Okay, I’m just gonna eat green stuff and 17 chickpeas a night,” or something like that. Like,

Lee Zuvanich: Mm-hmm

Zach: not realistic.

That takes a long time to get there, and if you don’t have a way to implement that into your life, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be hell on earth more than it needs to be

Sarah: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It’s, it’s a small– People are like, “Oh, I’m gonna do everything,” and then it’s like total overkill. But yeah, my, my one, like, piece of advice for people starting with anything is to learn the concept of habit stacking, which is if you have… You, you already have habits. Like, you didn’t probably pick them on purpose, but you know you already have them.

So f- identify a habit, identify one thing you wanna do, and then connect those things together. So I make cacao. My– I actually don’t drink coffee ’cause I don’t do caffeine, so this is actually cacao. It’s roasted like coffee. It’s wonderful. Whoops. And I make it every day. I drink it every [00:35:00] day consistently, and I have a chin-up bar in my kitchen, so when I’m making it, I do chin-ups.

Like, that’s most, most days. So it’s like, it’s a, it’s a, a good example of like, I’m going to make this drink. I’m gonna, while I’m waiting for it to steep, I’m gonna go over and I’m gonna do the chin-up bar. And then you can, once that’s a habit, then you can build other things. Okay, now after I do that, now I’m gonna do this.

Or, or connect it to something else that you do consistently. So that’s the best piece of advice, ’cause that’s how you should start, is start small. So pick one thing that’s doable, that fits into your life, and maybe that’s meditating. I could also be like, “Okay, I’m making my c- I want it to steep for five minutes.

I’ll go sit and meditate for five minutes,” right? But if you connect those in your brain, you can build those neural pathways without stressing yourself out. So start, start there.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, agreed

Sarah: So

Lee Zuvanich: It’s

Sarah: cool

Zach: So we can

Lee Zuvanich: Well, I feel like we could probably keep sharing things that did and didn’t work for forever, ’cause we’ve spent decades figuring this stuff out. But we could probably end it here and just [00:36:00] close with, you know, what’s, I don’t know, a little piece of advice for people listening that puts a bow on, like, your personal perspective.

Like, for me, I think that beyond just sleep and habit stacking and dating better it would be to, just holistically reassess every year and figure out what’s working and what’s not, and come back to what’s not. Because another, like, the last piece of the puzzle for people who are looking for better habits and to do better is to know that not doing it perfectly, like we never will. Every time you fall off the wagon, just maybe try to find a point to get back on. For me, that’s the first of the year. And now it’s more like quarterly. If I see, like, the seasons changing, I’m like, “Oh, how have I been doing?” And I check in. So anything else you guys wanna close out with?

Sarah: Good

Lee Zuvanich: Awesome

Zach: I think, I think that summed it up. Habits, they are and can be good

Lee Zuvanich: can

Sarah: Do them.[00:37:00]

Zach: Hey,

Lee Zuvanich: Good luck. You’ll be fine.