Episode 22: How to Protect Your Sanity… When Everything Is on Fire

Zach: Right. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Founder Problems Podcast. My name is Zach Oshinbanjo. I am a project manager who is PM for his household, the development of single family homes, as well as trying to get additional funding for his community housing development organization. And I’m joined by my co-host, Sarah and Lee.

Sarah: I’m Sarah Schumacher and I run a website agency that helps service-based businesses make websites that actually explain what they do and make it easier to collect and manage leads.

Lee Zuvanich: I’m Lee Zuvanich. I own a couple of help founders build apps, and I also built an app myself that I’m currently taking to market. Lots of ai.

Zach: Today we’re gonna be focused on one thing mainly is. [00:01:00] In spite of smelling napalm and just seeing disaster and destruction outside, how do you continue to do the thing that, at one point you said you loved, how do you continue to harness your craft? How do you hold the peace? How do you keep the sanity and how do you keep going forward? And I, I feel that this question is great for Lee to answer first.

Lee Zuvanich: right. So how do I keep my peace and my sanity? That’s a pretty loaded question. I think it’s very timely.

You social getting a barrage of overwhelming information and hot takes. So I think we’re all that. We’re all feeling on edge. And before we started recording, we were sharing just how do we keep our peace and our sanity And for me. One of the things I mentioned is that track my level of stress and tension.

I even check my heart rate with, you know, my iPhone. And but also I’ve just become very attuned to what it feels like in my [00:02:00] body when I am overly stressed because I learned the hard way. I will get sick. I’ll even end up in the er, I’ll have heart palpitations. Lots of things will happen if I don’t monitor that because I used to just drive myself.

Until I dropped, because I could, and I’m very stoic and it turns out that’s not the best way to manage stress. you would think I would’ve known that as a former yoga teacher and meditation teacher. But actually I wasn’t my own medicine for years. So I had to learn the hard way. Actually, I need that too.

I’m not like a superhuman person that can just power through. I need to actually detach. So for me, when I notice those symptoms of stress starting to rise up in my body. I connect it with what caused it. So, right. It could be, I just got a stressful email from a client. It could be I just saw the news, it could be nothing. could be something like, I just thought of something from 10 years ago, so I notice what it is, and then I kind of corral that thing. Whatever it is, I separate myself from it. So, news right now [00:03:00] I’m very intentional, intentional about what I consume. I will not watch violent. I in general as a person, I don’t watch anything violent. I mean, I’m hard pressed to watch like a Marvel movie these days because I just, I don’t feel that it does anything good for my nervous system, and I don’t see the point personally. So that’s just my own perspective. But I will absolutely never be watching the media that’s coming out right now where people are being harmed or murdered.

I would, I would never spend my time doing that. I think that’s disastrous for your mental health. and then, noticing, like if it was just an email from a client, for instance, or I’m worried about making payroll or all the normal as business owners. I reframe with what’s going right.

What are my wins today? I always come back to are my kids happy and healthy? How are my dogs? How am I doing? Am I alive, happy, healthy? I mean, I’ve been chronically ill before, so I have a lot of gratitude when it comes to having the ability to provide for my family at all. I go back to that. And then I start counting [00:04:00] like, well, what else is going right and how can I expand on that?

How can I go take that further? How can I go make a little bit more money with really happy right now? And I just try to focus on that. That’s, it’s no secret or hectic. Everyone’s pretty familiar with I think, these concepts, but putting them into play, noticing you’re stressed and actually consciously doing the things you know you need to do for your mental health is the trick.

Sarah: There’s a framework called Rain by Tara Brock. Such as the acronym rain. Recognize what is happening, allow the experience, investigate with interest and nurture with self-compassion.

So I think that’s kind of a helpful thing to remember sometimes is like the first step is the recognition. The recognition. And then it’s kind of walking through that and just ’cause I think most of the time we’re just like, we don’t actually stop long enough to pay attention. So I just, I’ve always thought that Rack Ram is helpful.

Not that I remember to use it, but I did. I will link it. I will link it in the show notes for people to find ’cause it is, it is very useful.

Zach: I think that’s one of those areas too, when you say recognize and understand what’s [00:05:00] going on, I think people are so comfortable living and trying to exist with their symptomology that they don’t take the time to realize like, oh, this is an, a normative state. Like I shouldn’t be feeling different things.

Like there’s little nuance things like, like the tension that you might feel in your shoulders, like you’re probably gonna butcher this, but in show notes, that’s what they’re for. The muscle group that’s on the, that connects like the back of your shoulder blades on the rear side. The trapezus trap pieces. Yeah, those, like, if you hunched and you know, all these, they go through the breathing exercise and they say relax. And people notice like you might drop like six inches ’cause you’re tensed up. But things like

Sarah: Yeah.

Zach: says stress, it exhibits in different ways.

Sarah: I think it’s important to know like what your own triggers for that are too. ’cause like I carry a lot of tension in my jaw. That’s pretty common. But I’ve also had like a jaw, like from a car accident where I have to like keep it, like I have to see the chiropractor fairly. Not often now like, but just I will notice, like I’ll get tensed up or whatever.

Like, especially like on the side that’s basically got [00:06:00] knocked outta socket or whatever. With an airbag, and so it’s like that flares up a little bit because I think I’m clenching my jaw too much. So I actually think that kind of shows up to the point where I have to see a chiropractor. If I am over tensing my jaw.

So that’s like just for me, I know that that’s a thing. And then obviously if you’re in front of a computer, I mean there’s so many, you know, like are you hunching? ’cause you’re just like, ’cause like I’ll like zone in and I’m just like leaning, you know, like that. That’s, I think part of it is just kind of knowing what those triggers are and paying attention to them.

And I just, I don’t think most of us stop long. I don’t stop long enough to actually

catch a lot of that.

Lee Zuvanich: of just

like noticing,

Sarah: I

Lee Zuvanich: wait,

is notice the last one in rain? What was the first one? Recognize,

Sarah: nurture.

Lee Zuvanich: notice.

Sarah: allow. Allow is a big one actually. You have to notice it, but then allow, because it’s, it’s the, the fighting against it or the pushing it down it’s the [00:07:00] allowing it that I think is kind of most important. And then the investigate will tell you more what’s going on, and then it’s actually nurture what is the last one?

Because then it’s like, okay, well what do I need in this moment?

Lee Zuvanich: considered the first like starting point and a tool in itself. Sometimes when I’m doom scrolling on the internet, I will notice that I’m doing it because I’ve learned that with any addictive habit, you notice it and without shame, just make a note. scrolling.

Sarah: Noting yes.

Lee Zuvanich: then, and you don’t the first. It’s like starting point for you. It’s the ability to stop that habit that you’re doing mindlessly and be mindful and just say, oh, I noticed that I’m in the pantry eating cake right now. Is another one of my things I like to do when I’m stressed. I used to stand in the pantry as a kid and just

Sarah: Don’t we?

Lee Zuvanich: hide and

snack. and so like noticing without judgment is so helpful for me because not only does it help me bring. My [00:08:00] awareness back into my body and just kind of reset and be like, oh, what time is it? What am I doing? But also, if you think of your life in like checklists or points like I do an ENTJ knowing that that’s a step I’m supposed to do for my mental health makes me instantly feel like I’m already doing better.

I’m doing something right, like I am doom scrolling, but I’m noticing it, that’s all I have to do. I have to be aware and then I can move on to accepting it. And that might mean like, this is one of my favorite tricks around supporting my own mental health, is noticing any or symptom of cognitive dissonance happening and just working to reconcile those two states, which is what Sarah was saying.

Just accept it. You just have to accept what’s happening before you can move forward. It’s game changing.

Sarah: Yeah. I think the noting, I know the noting concept is like from all the meditation stuff I’ve done, that’s my favorite, like, that’s the most life changing thing. I think the Headspace has [00:09:00] like an illustration or just a, a mental model they use of like having a feather and touching a wine glass kind of thing.

It’s just like a lightly, like you just note it and then you’re just kinda like, like you’re. It’s not, you’re not invested. And I think that’s like a helpful thing. ’cause people will notice, but it’s, and this is more like when you’re meditating and you’re like, oh, I’m, I’m doing it again. I’m spiraling thinking about this thing.

It’s like, it’s not that. It’s just noting, oh, I’m getting pulled back into these thoughts about X. But it’s not just like a meditation thing, it’s like a daily thing. So I, it’s interesting, I’m trying to think of like a recent example. ’cause I have not been good about any of this lately, but yesterday was just a very frustrating day.

And I realized I was frustrated. I’m like, this day sucks. I am irritated. My husband’s out running errands. I need boba tea. So I’m like, you know, I kind of did the thing. I recognized that I was frustrated, like I knew why. Then I was like, what do I need in this moment? I need a boba. That was my, so yeah, the snacking thing.

And maybe that’s not the [00:10:00] healthiest option. It’s definitely not. But I felt a lot better when he brought home a boba. I will say that. So that’s the best one I’ve got, man, lately. ’cause I’ve just not been good about this ’cause I just run so quickly through all the stuff I have to do. But the, the recognizing is step one for sure.

Especially with the doom scrolling.

Zach: Yeah.

Sarah: ’cause that’s usually unconscious.

Zach: Being able to recognize and then, and maybe even in that case, like a boba is not necessarily the worst thing to have. ’cause there

Sarah: Oh,

Zach: know, there are thou, there’s a list of a thousand things where the vice is a lot worse.

Sarah: that is a good point. Yeah. Minus sugar or chocolate. Now chocolate’s just part of my daily life. That’s not a, that’s not an indulgence. I’m sorry.

Will work for dark chocolate. Yeah.

Zach: So how do you, I guess, how do you recognize those in yourself, Like beyond, like what was the, the cue in your mind when you were going through the process? Oh,

Sarah: That’s what I’m, that’s what I’m trying to remember. ’cause it, I really, it’s not like I was like, oh, I need to do the rain. Like, I just, [00:11:00] I, I’ve not been good about this lately. I have started meditating again in the morning. Or, or trying to, and it just been like, you know what, it can be five minutes. But the difference is when I come to my studio, do I sit in my, I meditate in a beanbag pro tip, maybe not a good pro tip, but I do.

So it’s like, do I sit in the the office chair or do I sit in the bean bag when I first come in here? And, and I’ve been the last week like. I can take five minutes to go over there and meditate for five minutes and before I come over here, ’cause I, I just, I just rush at least jump, I’m like locked in. So I’ve been trying to do that.

So I’m maybe paying slightly more attention now ’cause I’ve been trying, I, it was probably like an email is my guess. I’m trying to remember the exact moment. It was, it was just another interruption. It, it, I just, I had the project that I needed to work on yesterday and it was just constant, this thing needs troubleshoot, this thing needs broken.

A follow up on the, Hey, have you had a chance to look at this yet? It’s just like all [00:12:00] things that need done, but not like the big projects, if that makes sense. Like just all the little maintenance or people having

The egg

Lee Zuvanich: and energy and

Sarah: That.

what it was. It was a day of that. It was like, this mor this morning I’m gonna work on X.

Right? No, no. And I’m just like, oh,

deal with, Deal with, all the small things you mean like Yeah, because you probably do majority project management.

Zach: No, it just made me think of Urgent Ants is kind of how I look at a lot of those things. I, I block my, I think, I don’t think it’ll, it’ll probably won’t show up here, but my, no, this is terrible. My calendar is like

Sarah: Oh, usually the time blocking.

Zach: Just it’s very specifically so.

Sarah: I do too though.

But then it’s like I just get pulled into something else. So it’s, it’s, [00:13:00] so I think maybe part of it is just I need a flow chart is what I need. I think a flow chart that’s like. Person has a broken thing. Like how high priority is this broken thing? Can I give this broken thing to someone else?

Like all those, like maybe I just need something like that. ’cause I, again, I’ll see it and I’m like, oh, this guy’s per this thing, whatever. Like I log in here and I’ll look at this and then next thing I know it’s been 45 minutes and I figured it out and I’ve troubleshooting and it’s done. And then I go, now I can go back to what I was actually working on.

Oh no, wait, here’s another thing that needs fixed. Like it’s just. That, that was my day yesterday, so I, it was probably one of those emails that was the trigger for me where I was just like, or it was the time. It may have been seeing what time it was and being like, oh my God, it’s already like two 30, because I think it was around that time.

So it was probably like seeing what time it was and being like, I haven’t touched the thing that I wanted to work on today. So I think that was probably, it is just disappointment, like feeling the disappointment of realizing like, my day is getting close to the end and I haven’t done the thing I needed to do, and I’m very frustrated that these [00:14:00] interruptions are happening and I need a something positive.

And the positive thing, which trigger of course.

Zach: Sugar. The

Sarah: Yeah.

Zach: wonder though, like, so for that example, so if you had the big, the big thing to do, if you’re working on that and somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I’m not able to receive. Emails at my primary domain or something like, just something like that. Seems like a, they won’t, well, they won’t die

that doesn’t happen,

Sarah: Yeah,

Zach: but

Sarah: part of it is like the.

Zach: yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s true. It, it’s just the support stuff is a really big deal. I mean that’s, that’s why I do what I do in terms of like, when like hosted clients always get priority. It, that’s just, that’s just how it is. And so it’s, if it’s, it’s something that is broken, it’s like we’re gonna look at it immediately, even though a lot of the times it’s not our fault broken.

Lee Zuvanich: just thinking maybe at some point over the next 72 hours or [00:15:00] week, if I was lucky, you might be like, oh, have you tried

Zach: it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: you responded maybe 10 o’clock at night your time and or maybe it was like seven or

Sarah: Yeah, probably

Lee Zuvanich: night,

Sarah: it was in the, I remember

sometime. Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: What are you doing?

Like, I appreciate the help and I

Sarah: I mean.

Lee Zuvanich: so I wasn’t

gonna give you shit about

the same thing and been like, I hope this client doesn’t think I’m insane, but I

Sarah: It’s a problem solving thing. It’s why I’m good at what I do. Like I, if there’s a problem, I need to fix the problem. And also it’s usually easy for me not always with the troubleshooting, but a lot of times it’s, someone’s like, well, what about this? And I’m like, oh yeah, it’s probably this thing.

Whatever I’ll look at. Yeah, it was this here you, it’s fixed. You know? So it’s, it’s really quick and easy to do if some of these things, but not always. And then you might think that it like. It’s, I guess the intuition, not the intuition, the assumption, what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s assuming that it’s gonna be like a five minute thing sometimes, and then it turns into a 45 minute thing.

I, that’s, I had one of those this week, and it was, [00:16:00] then you just realize, I just spent 45 minutes fixing this thing, and

am I gonna bill for this?

Lee Zuvanich: so I think

Sarah: Because technically it was a client’s fault, you know? And then it’s like, but if I’m not, and that was money, I just,

Lee Zuvanich: new entrepreneurs, struggle with, is putting those boundaries around their time and energy when they get that ping at 10 o’clock at night. And they just wanna solve it because we’re all in this because we’re problem solvers in my opinion.

I mean, you don’t come to entrepreneurship

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: lazy about

solving problems. Usually

it and maybe people crazy because you love it so much, and you’re good at it and that’s why you’re making money. I mean, if you’re listening to this, you haven’t made any money yet, I would

Sarah: Right.

Lee Zuvanich: make money if you start

going and finding

That’s how we all got started. So then.

Sarah: That you’re passionate about solving,

Lee Zuvanich: You’re like,

Sarah: have to care about the problems. It can’t be somebody else’s problems.

Lee Zuvanich: Let

Sarah: Yes.

Lee Zuvanich: so

Sarah: Yep.

Lee Zuvanich: do

Sarah: Yep. Totally.

Lee Zuvanich: to, because you

to [00:17:00] like regularly to stay sane.

Sarah: I mean, I don’t, I, I, first of all, if it was you email, I remember when you or texted me, I was standing in line or waiting for something, I can’t remember, or we, maybe we were driving and so I was like, oh, I’ll, I’ll make sure I can get in this account or something. I wasn’t, I wasn’t do, I was like, it was easy to do in the car or whatever.

I was like riding in the car and I, if it was a client, I wouldn’t necessarily. Like I, I had a client text me a Saturday morning the other day and it was, her contact form was broken for some reason. They had like an embedded thing from their system. And so I, that was, that was a worth looking at. So I dropped what I was doing and I went on a Saturday and I looked and fixed it.

So if it’s something like that, I will do it. If it’s something less important, then it can wait till business hour. So it’s not like a hundred percent, like I do have a filter for it.

I will mon like, I’ll mon Yeah.

Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: how you need to turn off brain?[00:18:00]

Sarah: I mean, I have automated do not disturb settings on my phone, so it will. Like at, like in the evening, it just, it just blocks everything.

so I don’t see notifications from anything.

Lee Zuvanich: I do

Sarah: You can also do it with like Google Voice. You can set it up to where you don’t even get calls at a certain time. I have, like, I have specific notifications set up for like downtime, website, downtime or whatever.

So like that’s a separate thing. And then also, like my developer, like I have a guy that monitors that, so that’s. That’s taken care of. It’s not like I’m not gonna see those things, but for just like inquiries, you know, if it’s really an emergency, they can call, I guess like, you know, and, and if I see, if I do see something, it’s a, is this important enough to drop everything and fix it?

I think the danger for me is when I see something that’s like, well, you know, I’m already. Editing this podcast, whatever. If I’m already my, like, I’m already like working on something on my computer, it’ll just take me five minutes to look at this. That’s the danger for me [00:19:00] is thinking, well, if I can just knock this out now, I don’t have to worry about it tomorrow too quickly.

That’s like sort of the thinking, like being intentional about it because I have, like, in the evenings is when I work on like this, all the stuff I have to do or like my, like business development or you know, all of that. And so I don’t wanna get sucked into client things or client emails, so I try not to do.

Past, you know, my working hours, which is I try to cut those off at four when my kid gets outta school, and then I’ll usually get back on in the evening. But I try not to do the, that’s where I have to be careful about if I happen to see an email from a client. It doesn’t have to be done right then, but sometimes I will.

Anyway, that’s, I guess my, my line is, it has to be my personal projects or business development in the evenings. And if it’s a weekend or whatever, it has to be a like major impact again, like a contact, like a website, contact form’s not working. I think that’s a good example of like kind of an emergency, what I would consider kind of an [00:20:00] emergency issue, which really honestly isn’t, ’cause none of my clients are big enough that they’re like, they’re not getting like 50 inquiries an hour.

Okay. So technically even that is not an emergency per se. But I, that one is one I would consider.

Zach: I think it’s a bit of a potentially common thread, I would say or observe, is that when your business as an entrepreneur, the the work that you do is very service oriented. I think it kind of becomes like that, the brand guarantee type thing

Sarah: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Zach: in a self where people have a problem, they’re like, ma, this is messed up. She’s super high speed. Let me ask her how to fix this regardless of how much it may impose or infringe on your, whatever you’re doing, because you are. The service essentially, that people are paying

Sarah: Yeah.

Zach: for your expertise. It’s very direct, it’s very accessible and upfront, you know, as you’re going through the consultation and all that, people get to know you and they’re like, ah, she knows everything.

Lemme just ask her.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zach: through this process and I would [00:21:00] imagine they had the same experience working with Lee, where you’re like, X, Y Z’s broke.

Ah, let me just throw it onto his plate. He’ll sort it out.

Lee Zuvanich: have. I went to a client once to help them with internet issues and to be fair, if they, their stuff goes down, they’ve got people

Zach: Internet issues.

Lee Zuvanich: not working. But I went there fresh

from a dentist

appointment after having my

removed, like I had gauze in my mouth and I drove right to, I was 10 minutes away when I got the call and I was like, I’m on my, on my way. And

Zach: That, yeah, like I think that’s, that’s.

Sarah: Oh, they didn’t know.

Lee Zuvanich: that. So, I

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: years few

is I upcharge quite a bit now for that kind of on demand service. But yeah, starting out, speed to solution is a differentiator that a lot of new entrepreneurs. Have to bring. That’s what we’re bringing. You don’t have a lot of other, you’re not flashy.

Zach: a [00:22:00] nimbleness to it.

Lee Zuvanich: I

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: that are like, I’m slow now because gone through 50 or a hundred clients. And I’m like, you can wait. I’m seen. And so someone who’s new to what, to my industry that’s competing against me, if they’re gonna respond in 10 minutes right outta their dentist appointment, they might get that client out from under me.

I don’t know. But I’m gonna keep my sanity. So I think that it’s important for all these people that are coming into the market being like, well, like how price sets value, I think that the way that you away your time or structure your offerings also sets value.

It, it sends a message. Like you’re not on call 24 7 without being paid a premium for that kind of thing. And so just having those boundaries really does tell people you’re a professional. important to grow up a little bit and get to that point. If you’re stretching yourself too thin.

Sarah: And part of my issue too though, is like I don’t have to be the one to troubleshoot this. I could delegate the troubleshooting, but I can do it quicker. [00:23:00] So, and I don’t have to worry about following up with it, right? So that’s part of, I either don’t think about it at all and I just like, I can just knock this out because I know what this is.

Versus having to make sure you know, that I get, is there any context that my team needs for this? Like, can I hand this off? Because I mean, most of the stuff I could hand off probably, and I just don’t. Think about that because I’m, I’m already on the task, so that’s the same, same issue I always have. So I don’t have to be troubleshooting all of these things.

It’s just I get sucked into it, I guess. ’cause it’s like it comes through and I can either put it in the system and hand it off to someone and then follow up later and answer whatever questions come up. Or I can just take a few minutes, log in and look at it and that feels easier. It technically is easier,

I, it’s not scalable.

And that’s where I’m like, I need to stop doing that. So, but then I ended, yeah, so then I ended up with the day that I had yesterday where it’s like, and it wasn’t just yesterday, it was, it’s been a week of this for whatever reason. There’s just like all the, these random things. And so [00:24:00] it just, that, and then just obviously the week that we’ve had anyways, it’s just been like, oh my gosh, like this just this week sucks.

So time blocking boundaries I think need to be held better probably with certain things. I, you know, the other thing I’d say, so Tim Ferris had a thing years ago, be popularized probably in the four hour work week about checking your email at 11 and 4:00 PM So you only check your email twice a day and you just make sure you have a, you know, not, you could have an auto response or like just have it in your signature so people know because your email.

If there’s a quote about your email is a to-do list, which anyone in the world can add an item, you know? So I, I think that that’s smart. I have done that in the past before, I typically don’t anymore. ’cause I’m usually like waiting on things for people, like I need. I need a, a photo for something or, you know what I mean?

Like there’s just stuff that comes in. So I think that can also be a helpful strategy in terms of boundary setting is if you don’t check the email until a certain time slot, [00:25:00] you’re not gonna be distracted by whatever this person’s questions are. And again, if it’s an emergency, they’ll call you if it really is an emergency.

So I probably, maybe I could go back to that.

Zach: There’s

Sarah: Check the email twice a day.

Zach: Levels to that type of access. I think

Sarah: Yeah.

Zach: like for myself as I look at. Kind of managing and the stress of different situations. ’cause I always try to predict the future. I mean, as much as anybody can. As a project manager, I always try to assume when things are gonna happen and they seldom do. We just talked about things seldom come to fruition. And I think that’s, you always have to dis keep that contingency in your back pocket or when you think things are gonna happen. And as far as like accessibility, there’s like a project I was working on recently where was. Some potential issues of. Vandalism on the site ’cause it wasn’t a fully secure site. So people like to mess with stuff [00:26:00] I think the client, it was probably like 30 at night, we went through this process where it was like, okay, people are gonna mess with it, but you can put in deterrence, you know like those little Walmart 30 foot poles, attention.

You are being watched attention and it just plays that over and over. Attention. You have failed to leave. We were calling the authorities and it goes through this loop. So we put one of these out there and it’s booming. It’s like you could probably hear it from like six blocks away. And so some people were over there and they didn’t leave, and so I was first point of contact.

There was 11 at night. They pulled up in like a suburban and a van. I’m like, okay, what are they doing? And I get the call, what do they got going on over there? It’s 11. I’m trying to figure it out. And they’re like, do you want us to send the police? I’m like, I have a, a hunch I know who this guy is it was actually like one of the contractors we were having work on the building.

He decided to go [00:27:00] there on his own volition at 11 at night in two vans, no reflector vest, no gear, just like pajamas or something. He just pulled up, decided I’m gonna do this work in the middle of the night

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Zach: telling him to leave and all that. And I was just like, good grief. I don’t want to be point of contact anymore at 11 at night.

But, that’s just one of those types of experiences as far as like access, but make sure outside of odd circumstances like that, I’m not, I’m not accessible. I, I, I’ve put that up front. I am not accessible.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: respect around your From getting up early to work on workout, to, you know, even when we can’t record the podcast, and Sarah and I are like, we could do the weekend. You’re like, my weekends for my family. I don’t think I know anyone else that does that, to be honest.

Like my world is full of entrepreneurs and I think a lot of us are used to being like, works for you. And it’s a sign [00:28:00] of like self-respect when you’re able to do that, when you’re able to put those boundaries around your time and show other people consistently, sorry, work it out. for my family.

Like I think that’s really healthy and I aspire to that.

Sarah: I, I think that, you know, I agree. I don’t think I actually know anybody else that. I’m just trying to think of, I can’t think of any off the top of my head. I have like a no meeting Monday, but like, I’ll make exceptions for like discovery or project calls or like, if it’s something to move a project forward, like that’s, so I do even have exceptions for that.

So, you know, generally I’ll say like, I don’t meet on Mondays and I definitely don’t go anywhere. Like it has to be a virtual meeting if it’s, so, it’s like there are certain things, and I’ll say that sometimes people are like, oh, I’m like, that’s nothing, like, that’s barely, that’s barely a boundary, right?

And. Even some people are surprised by that, so I, yeah, I think that that’s kind of the way you have to be to protect your sanity,

and most of us are just not always great about it.

Lee Zuvanich: was protecting access to [00:29:00] protects my sanity.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lee Zuvanich: letting every single

person that had a to me. And I started saying, well, this is a problem for operations. This is a problem someone else can deal If I have to send this to a lawyer, I will I will not be the point of contact for every single, complaint, every single billing because I like to actually be. Someone’s friend, like as much as you can be professionally, obviously I don’t think of them as I wanna be with you and I want to solve problems with you.

I wanna go sit next to you and hear all about what we’re doing to make your business better. And I want it to be exciting and fun for both of us, and we’re ideating. And the last thing that I want is to then turn around and be the bad guy that’s like, you know, you’re two weeks late on your invoice. So, there’s a, there’s

Sarah: That’s a good point.

Lee Zuvanich: as well, so.

Zach: Big.

Lee Zuvanich: Yeah, it,

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: and I used to dive

right into it and be like,

this, you know, I’m everything. Sorry. And I started trying to study like, what do executives hire up where I [00:30:00] aspire to go because I’m not gonna stay at this level forever. I will go crazy. so if I wanted to be more professional and have a bigger company, like what if I take my startup to market and I have, you know. Thousands or or millions of users. If I aspire to that, I better have a process in place that keeps me sane and professional and efficient. When people start throwing stuff at me like they do right now on a small scale, if I can’t figure it out with 10 clients, I definitely can’t do it, you know, with a thousand users. So I started trying to research what that would look like and I was actually kind of shocked. I dunno why, but I was shocked that, It just the higher up you go, like, you know, people, leaders at big companies, like any global company that you think of, it’s a tech startup. Those people are so insulated from everything because their time is insanely valuable.

And so they’ve built layer after layer around themselves. And as a small business [00:31:00] owner, you can still do that. It’s difficult and You know, the, the main point is. Your time has to be so important to you and so valuable to you. You can’t just be giving it away left and right listening to us talk about it.

I’m realizing, like with Sarah and I versus Zach’s approach, that like, oh, I’ll do it right now. Oh yeah, I just got your email kind of attitude that people value and pay for is actually so detrimental to sanity. I never really thought about it like that until just now, but it, like listening to

Sarah: Well, and it’s ironic because that’s what, that’s what makes like me good at what I do too, though. So it’s like the success I’ve had is as a result of that. So it’s almost like the tactics, tactics that got you there aren’t gonna get you to the next. Stage that’s, and I think it’s very typical, especially of the technician model, of the technician that started a business.

The person’s good at actually doing the work. That’s very, very common. ’cause then at some point you have to transition into, okay, I am now the manager that started a business or the executive or whatever. And I, I’ve often thought before the, [00:32:00] especially for finance stuff, it would be great to have a person that did like the actual bids on things too.

Like to find like a hard ass that charges a lot. Right to be like, oh, that would be cool if I had a person that was like, you go figure out how much this should cost. You send the, like to handle all the money side. ’cause then I don’t have to be, and I don’t, I don’t necessarily mind doing that, but like if I talk about the strategy at the front end, then hand it off, go here’s it.

I think people can be more realistic. ’cause if it’s like someone I wanna work with, I might be like, eh, I’ll, I’ll make this work for you. You know? Whereas if it’s somebody that’s like purely a finance person that’s like looking at numbers, they’re gonna be more.

On the nose as far as like what it needs to be.

So there’s certain things where I think it’s, it is better to insulate yourself and have other people that handle certain things, but you just can’t, until you get to a certain size, you don’t always have the bandwidth or not the bandwidth, but the,

it’s the ability to hire for that,

Lee Zuvanich: I started

Sarah: so

Lee Zuvanich: if

I didn’t do would burn out. So at some point it becomes like the cost of [00:33:00] business.

Sarah: it becomes necessary. Yeah, I agree. No, it’s you, do you get to a breaking point I think.

Zach: I am reaching that kind of own point in my own professional work where I’ve been kind of like the central guy, but I’m moving more into this single source of truth for all active projects across the city. I’m kind of getting to the point like this is as a. I kind of am a thing that I moonlight to do. It becomes overwhelming at a certain point, and I’m glad that we’re kind of expanding a little bit, doing some intern programming. I mentioned in one of the episodes where I can just brain zap all those kind of like granular details to someone else, not in like a. Intern abuse type way, like, do this because you’re, you’re not being paid like that kind of thing, but more like a, these are things that I did [00:34:00] initially and they helped me get to where I’m at now.

’cause there’s just so many pieces. I think it as a more well-oiled machine, it just works better if someone else has some insight to everything. ’cause you, on a

Sarah: Yeah.

Zach: of like 30 houses simultaneously being built in one subdivision, that’s, I would almost say impossible. I not almost, it is impossible for one person to control 30 houses being built at the same time. So it’s really just trying to find and protect how I can leverage and offload some of that additional stress. Like, and I can notice in myself when I see something going the wrong way. It was two weeks ago I had a, a car related issue and I was trying to get the shop to basically take responsibility.

’cause I mean, it was their kind of job, their thing. And, they got me pretty wound up when I when I get wound up, I resort to hyperbole and I, [00:35:00] it it’s not effective when you’re trying to present a very strong, almost courtroom like closing argument. And when you say something crazy like, well, what if I have to pay 30,000 and they’re. That’s preposterous. It would never be 30,000. And then you’re like, you just feel deflated. Like, shoot, I almost had them, but, so now I have to protect that. ’cause that went a bad way. I was like, man, they, they got me wound up. So, i, I have to recognize that now. Like, no, I, now I’ve just, I think like the last four type of disagreement issues that I had after that, I went into it so calm. Like, what is the dude Chris Voss when he’s

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Zach: when he is talking about the negotiating, he’s like, well, we want a million dollars in a plane. Why do you want that? You know, just like a really smooth response. So now I’ve just started. or trying to keep myself intact. So protecting my sanity and keeping everything cool because you actually can get a lot [00:36:00] farther rather than screaming and getting irate

Sarah: Mm mm.

Zach: On that note I’m wondering what are some of the preventative things that people can do? You see that you’re going in a different direction than you actually want to go. can you do to prevent that from becoming an issue? So I guess if we’re moving in, in the the Reign framework, you’ve recognized it, you’ve accepted it, you’ve investigated it

so how can you nurture, if I’m using nurture in the right context for that particular framework, how can you prevent and, or move on from it?

Sarah: I guess I look at cause.

In the troubleshooting thing, if I’m getting derailed by all these things, the cause is that I am jumping into projects that I should either not be seeing right now and wait and handle at a different time or delegate to somebody else to troubleshoot.

So I, I look at cause and effect. I deal with the cause and I look at whatever caused it. And then at this point I’m just like, my time blocking needs you better. That’s the conclusion that I have come to is I need to ignore my email probably for certain [00:37:00] periods of time and.

Just refuse to do anything. That’s not what I need is a troubleshooting time block. Actually, that would probably be the best one. So either I can delegate it or I block off like the end of the day. Maybe that’s the other thing that’s frustrating. You brain has certain times it likes working on things and you need to figure out what those are for you.

So I would rather work on the deep work stuff in the morning. I do not wanna be troubleshooting problems first thing in the morning. Like that’s not what I should be doing. So I should have a troubleshooting time block. That’s like toward the end of the day if I am gonna do this and be like.

Exactly. Yeah, that’s it. Like I’m, this is gonna get tabled until then, and then I will address all those. And I have been better about that in the past. I think when things get busy, you kind of slide away from the routines and then it just gets worse and worse and worse. And then at some point you’re like, man, this feels chaotic.

Like I usually to better about this. So yeah. So I look at the cause and effect, I guess is my answer.

Lee Zuvanich: when you were talking about your moonlighting gig, Zach. I can’t remember if that’s

Zach: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: or [00:38:00] if you get paid for

that, I feel like either way, I know it’s not your primary source of income, right? It’s like another thing you’re doing on top of everything else and you’re helping out.

Zach: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: an organization

by doing it. I think it’s a

I’m correct. So think that all of us here on the podcast, but probably everyone listening, that starts businesses and is just good at solving problems. A lot of us, we get sucked into solving problems for people that can’t actually give us what we need in return. it’s a hard. and it’s a hard conversations, but if you wanna be successful and sane and have a family and friends and, you know, normal, like table stakes for a, a a healthy life, you have to get really good at saying just over and over or saying this is what I’m worth. So I can’t give you 40 hours a week.

I can give you how much can you afford? You can afford five. Cool. This is what you can get for five hours a week, if doesn’t work for you. I completely understand. I can maybe refer you to [00:39:00] someone, but that is what worth, period. That was easier for me when my kids were in private school. I went from being full-time at other tech agencies to go into work for myself. from day one, was going into those conversations with clients saying, this is what I’m worth, because I was taking a huge leap A comfortable full-time job in tech to go work for my community, for all these people who were saying, oh, please, we need you. We need your help because we trust you more than we trust these other agencies. And I kind of felt like I was doing them a favor. I was doing them a very expensive favor, but I was still filling a hole in the market that they were asking me to fill. And I basically had to say, I’m not gonna come Chief. That is the deal. And I was able to get enough people to agree to that deal you know, started my business that way. know, went full time that way. And that is the only thing that keeps me sane. If I start discounting my time, I start to just, everything kind of falls apart [00:40:00] because then I can’t pay for the help I need,

Sarah: That’s

Lee Zuvanich: it just becomes

too

much.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s a huge one.

Zach: I had to set a limit, so it’s like. I do the project management work as almost like a consulting type thing, but I, I do in fact enjoy the work, so it makes it a lot easier. And then some of the, the nonprofit thing that’s an addition to that, and then the grant stuff is another thing. So I kind of, I made the conscious decision, like I can only do three things.

That’s it.

gonna do I.

Eric, four. That’s, that’s it. There’s no room for anybody else or anything else. Just four things. I’m gonna be on a podcast, I’m gonna do some grants work, I’m gonna do some project management, and I’m gonna do some nonprofit feel goody stuff. So that’s it. And so I think all that in focus has been helpful.

’cause I think I was even trying to, oh, even, yeah. And [00:41:00] my, my floundered intelligence, that was the fifth thing I guess. So that was, that was. Going on, but you gotta, you gotta stop. At some point you’re gonna be ineffective and you’re not really doing anything. At a certain point, it just looks like you’re looking for brag points.

Like, yeah, I have seven jobs doing what? Well, little no you don’t.

Sarah: Yeah,

get that. You just literally don’t know how to say no, have no clue.

Zach: Yeah.

Sarah: One of those two.

Lee Zuvanich: of the

Sarah: Yeah. To your, exactly. Yeah,

Lee Zuvanich: like, but it’s such a you know, I can’t let it pass me by.

It’s a mental

Sarah: yeah. That’s the whole thing.

Zach: So we’ve run through some of our problem areas, some of the different solutions that we’ve all conjured up in our own. I think the main thing here is if you’re an entrepreneur or if you’re someone who is triple dipping I guess that’s pretty negative. Who’s exploring multiple revenue options?

There we go. There. I, I was thinking of the [00:42:00] word. I was like, I don’t wanna butcher it. But if you’re in multiple avenues and you’re trying to figure it out one of the main things we want you to take away here is you gotta take care of yourself. Don’t, don’t try to be some, some guru person who tells you nine to five or from nine to noon, they’re checking stocks and from one to three 15 they’re running a detail, a car detail business.

Like, yeah, I mean you could do all these things, but at, at a certain point you have to check your pulse, use your aura ring, use, use some device to check how you’re feeling. Be that literal or figurative. You check it out. ’cause you could.

could collapse,

so.

Lee Zuvanich: you. I

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee Zuvanich: tell you how

many people in program I was in for entrepreneurs. Have heart attacks, get divorces, like became a joke. think three people ended up in the

Sarah: So depress.

Lee Zuvanich: in the year that, [00:43:00] and, that’s not okay.

It’s not sustainable, but it’s, everyone was kind of like, yeah, it is what it is. And those people, I was one of ’em, we were all the people who had received the most funding that year, I believe. it was like a one for one. Yeah.

Sarah: makes sense.

Lee Zuvanich: it’s just like all the people I knew a sale of their business or big funding round, they ended up the emergency room because of stress related conditions. It is very serious. If you want to be successful, something you have to bake in. It’s not nice to have. It’s not, oh, I’ll do it later someday. I’ll be the, know, cold plunge guy. Like, you have to it in,

Sarah: Well, it’s also contrarian though. That’s a good point because this kind of goes against the everything that you see in Hear online. Like, I mean, we were specific about saying like the anti hussle whatever, anti Hussle podcast. ’cause it’s like this, I’ll sleep when I’m dead. Or like all of that stuff is so dumb and so unhealthy and it’s not even like.[00:44:00]

You don’t even have to. You can agree with that, but you’ll still get sucked into it because that’s just sort of the nature of the beast. So I think you also have to have this conviction that it matters enough for you to go against the grain, because there will, I mean, there are people who will, we’ve talked about that for people who will shame people for taking care of themselves or for not working till the nth degree or

and it’s like, that’s unhealthy and.

also has different lines and different boundaries for that. So like we have friends that like just do a ton of stuff with their kids and like, they have like crazy schedules. Everybody’s like doing sports, all that. And like

not, we don’t do that kind of,

Lee Zuvanich: Oh,

Sarah: just like that.

Like you have to decide like what works for you.

Lee Zuvanich: I

Sarah: It’s nuts, right? And so it’s like even just things like if you have young children, you may not be able to commit to a certain time. Frames or, or meetings or hours or whatever as someone that has kids in high school. ’cause it’s different. So there’s also like different times of life, there’s different things that work for you and your family and you have to figure out like [00:45:00] what’s okay, what works with you individually and your family individually, and not base it on what other people do because everybody’s different.

And I’m just, I’m an introvert. I don’t want to go to a million things. Like we, you know, we try not, we try to do some stuff, but at the same time, like I’m not. I would never do that. I would never be signed up for 50,000 things because even the thought of that stresses me out, and I know that about myself.

And so that’s just like, that’s just a thing that we don’t do. So I think having the understanding that you’re going against the grain here and you’re gonna be better off for it, but you do have to understand that you people make comments and people push back and whatever. That’s why, that’s why it’s a line and it’s a conviction.

You have to come up with ahead of time. Like, sorry, I just don’t have, I just don’t have meetings on Mondays or whatever.

Do we have any other things to add to that

Zach: keeping the main thing, the main thing, and closing this thing out, right? Keep the sanity, hold the peace, and make sure you take care of yourself because entrepreneurship will not take care of you. So that being said, thanks for listening to the Founder Problems [00:46:00] podcast. Everyone remember, we all have problems.